Tu n'as pas été choqué par l'emploi du term Boches sur la plaque honorant le pauvre François Schester? Est-ce qu'en Bocheland on parle des cruautés commises pas les Frogs?
Ken wasn't aware or concious of his lack of sensitivity when he asked me if I was chocked. I was surprised, but not chocked. Why should I? This plaque was probably paid for by the parents of this patriotic young man and it shows their grief. In WWI and WWII we've been through a lot of what Americans still don't understand. Wait until there is a real war on American soil with foreign troops!
I tried to answer in as polite a way as I could. Certainly there were atrocities commited when Louis XIV invaded the Palatinate. But I do not know what the Germans call the French in relation to this unfortunate, painful and tragic event. I don't remember what Madame, who was born in the chateau at Heidelberg, said about it.
So, what I meant was the Germans are free to call whoever what at home! Nothing scarry there. Lol!
Let's not even think about Napolean's military campaigns in Germany, Russia, and beyond. I don't think my question revealed any lack of sensitivity on my part. Since you are someone who is usually a stickler when it comes to using proper language, I thought you might find it surprising that the sign would carry a slang word. On the Henri IV assassination plaque, it should say not the assassins name but "a despicable Catholic fanatic..."
As a Frenchman there is no reason why I'd be chocked by the use of a word that has been in common use in French for one hundred fifty years. I was surprised, yes, but not shocked. The use of this word there shows the anger the parents must have felt. That's how I see it. This plaque is meant for French people to read. If foreigners are chocked, it means they don't understand and it doesn't matter.
I also think that plaque was put up in a different era, when there was more tolerance for words of this sort. For example, in the US TV show Hogan's Heroes, which ran from 1965 - 1971, Colonel Louis Lebeau often refers to Germans using this slang word. The cast also used the word "kraut" frequently. Slang was a way to objectify the enemy.
It seems that the term boche has existed for about one hundred fifty years. It has been in common use, especially in Northern France since WWI when this region was a battleground. In my opinion, the use of that term in the plaque would mean that it was erected not long after the death of that young man and when the memory was still fresh.
A while back (maybe 2004?), I visited an exhibit on WWII at the Bibliothèque Historique on rue Pavée in Paris. That term was so prevalent in the displays that I checked with the docent that I'd understood both its meaning and the tone. She was quite matter-of-fact about it.
I've tried three times now to leave a long, typographically complicated post about the boche question but every time I hit the Publish button on the comment form the text vanishes. Very frustrating.
Another slang term for Germans was Krauts, from sauerkraut. They were also called Jerries. I believe the Brits used "boche", as well. I've seen, in small towns in other parts of France, similar plaques, commemorating (usually young) people killed for their part in the Resistance.
Hmmm. I know of one, in a town in Aude, where I'm pretty sure it was placed relatively recently and by the village administration. I'll check with friends there. Maybe there's a town-city split on the matter.
Quelle variété! C'est tout le cœur d'un pays, du fromage au patriotisme!
ReplyDeleteTu n'as pas été choqué par l'emploi du term Boches sur la plaque honorant le pauvre François Schester? Est-ce qu'en Bocheland on parle des cruautés commises pas les Frogs?
DeleteJe ne suis pas au courant de ce que font les Allemands. C'est leur privilège de faire chez eux ce qu'ils veulent.
DeleteMoi, j'étais surprise de voir ça, Ken, le term Boches sur cette plaque.
ReplyDeleteI have just learned what Boches means. I hope I misunderstood chm’s comment.
ReplyDeleteHi BettyAnn, which comment was to be misunderstood? I'm ready to make it clear if necessary.
Delete“It is their privilege to do whatever they want at home.” That sounds a little scary.
DeleteHere is a very long answer.
DeleteKen wasn't aware or concious of his lack of sensitivity when he asked me if I was chocked. I was surprised, but not chocked. Why should I? This plaque was probably paid for by the parents of this patriotic young man and it shows their grief. In WWI and WWII we've been through a lot of what Americans still don't understand. Wait until there is a real war on American soil with foreign troops!
I tried to answer in as polite a way as I could. Certainly there were atrocities commited when Louis XIV invaded the Palatinate. But I do not know what the Germans call the French in relation to this unfortunate, painful and tragic event. I don't remember what Madame, who was born in the chateau at Heidelberg, said about it.
So, what I meant was the Germans are free to call whoever what at home! Nothing scarry there. Lol!
Let's not even think about Napolean's military campaigns in Germany, Russia, and beyond. I don't think my question revealed any lack of sensitivity on my part. Since you are someone who is usually a stickler when it comes to using proper language, I thought you might find it surprising that the sign would carry a slang word. On the Henri IV assassination plaque, it should say not the assassins name but "a despicable Catholic fanatic..."
DeleteAs a Frenchman there is no reason why I'd be chocked by the use of a word that has been in common use in French for one hundred fifty years. I was surprised, yes, but not shocked. The use of this word there shows the anger the parents must have felt. That's how I see it. This plaque is meant for French people to read. If foreigners are chocked, it means they don't understand and it doesn't matter.
DeleteI also think that plaque was put up in a different era, when there was more tolerance for words of this sort. For example, in the US TV show Hogan's Heroes, which ran from 1965 - 1971, Colonel Louis Lebeau often refers to Germans using this slang word. The cast also used the word "kraut" frequently. Slang was a way to objectify the enemy.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the term boche has existed for about one hundred fifty years. It has been in common use, especially in Northern France since WWI when this region was a battleground.
DeleteIn my opinion, the use of that term in the plaque would mean that it was erected not long after the death of that young man and when the memory was still fresh.
A while back (maybe 2004?), I visited an exhibit on WWII at the Bibliothèque Historique on rue Pavée in Paris. That term was so prevalent in the displays that I checked with the docent that I'd understood both its meaning and the tone. She was quite matter-of-fact about it.
DeleteI've tried three times now to leave a long, typographically complicated post about the boche question but every time I hit the Publish button on the comment form the text vanishes. Very frustrating.
DeleteHere's an interesting web site about word histories with an explanation of the term boche.
DeleteKen, the Publish button ate my first post too. Some days...
DeleteThe paridy of the Lord's prayer is very funny!
DeleteAnother slang term for Germans was Krauts, from sauerkraut. They were also called Jerries. I believe the Brits used "boche", as well. I've seen, in small towns in other parts of France, similar plaques, commemorating (usually young) people killed for their part in the Resistance.
ReplyDeleteWhat I wonder is this: are those plaques put up by the authorities or are the put up by families?
DeleteMy guidebook (for what it's worth) says they're put up/paid for by private parties.
DeleteI agree with Chrissoup's guidebook that those plaques are placed and paid for by private parties.
DeleteHmmm. I know of one, in a town in Aude, where I'm pretty sure it was placed relatively recently and by the village administration. I'll check with friends there. Maybe there's a town-city split on the matter.
Delete