tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post4013886182096716398..comments2024-03-28T11:41:43.558+01:00Comments on Living the life in Saint-Aignan: The resident's card (anti)climaxKen Broadhursthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-54354700385494593572019-09-25T07:26:21.463+02:002019-09-25T07:26:21.463+02:00There's so much variation in usage when it com...There's so much variation in usage when it comes to the names of all the préfectures in France that it's difficult to see a pattern. Some examples from the official gouv.fr site:<br /><br />la préfecture d'Indre-et-Loire (mais) de l'Indre<br />la préfecture de la Seine-Maritime, de la Charente-Maritime, de la Haute-Loire<br />la préfecture de Loir-et-Cher, de Maine-et-Loire, d'Eure-et-Loir<br />la prefecture de Tarn-et-Garonne, de Lot-et-Garonne<br />la préfecture du Lot<br />la préfecture de la Gironde, de la Somme, de la Haute-Vienne, <br />la préfecture des Bouches-du-Rhône, des Côtes-d'Armor<br /><br />Maybe I should have written a doctoral dissertation on this subject!<br /><br />Related: I read this on Wikipédia about le (la?) Maine-et-Loire<br /><br />On dit et on écrit « le Maine-et-Loire » ; le nom du département a donc connu une masculinisation consacrée par l’usage alors que la règle aurait souhaité, la Maine et la Loire étant toutes deux féminines, que le nom « Maine-et-Loire » le fût également. Le masculin vient peut-être, par contamination, de la province du Maine (chef-lieu Le Mans), voisine. Comme tous les noms de départements formés de deux termes liés par « et », à l’inverse des autres noms de départements qui s’emploient avec l’article dans les compléments du nom et à la suite de la préposition « dans », on doit dire et écrire « département de Maine-et-Loire » ou « en Maine-et-Loire », et non « département du Maine-et-Loire » ou « dans le Maine-et-Loire », même si, là encore, « département du Maine-et-Loire » ou « dans le Maine-et-Loire » sont régulièrement utilisés.<br />Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-63575369823402610982019-09-24T17:30:48.753+02:002019-09-24T17:30:48.753+02:00No, because I think the addition of the féminine a...No, because I think the addition of the féminine article is called for. But, if this <i>département</i> was made of two rivers like Somme-et-Sambre or Somme-et-Escaut then the "de" can be used, I think. I'd say <i>la préfecture de la Somme</i>, but <i>la préfecture de Somme-et-Sambre.</i>chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-21812730329678247712019-09-24T15:33:51.717+02:002019-09-24T15:33:51.717+02:00Would you say la préfecture de Somme?Would you say <i>la préfecture de Somme</i>?Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-4587643105777274572019-09-24T15:27:33.411+02:002019-09-24T15:27:33.411+02:00Après avoir mûrement réfléchi, je suis arrivé à la...Après avoir mûrement réfléchi, je suis arrivé à la conclusion que dire département de Loir-et-Cher est une faute grammaticale avérée, puisque Loir est un nom masculin. Supposons un département fictif Loire-et-Cher. Loire est un nom féminin et, là, je pense qu'on peut dire préfecture de Loire-et-Cher, même si Cher est masculin, comme on dit département de Seine Maritime, d'autant que la première lettre de Loire est une consonne). Qui est donc à l'origine de cette erreur? Le français n'est pas une langue facile.chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-12916798779386269032019-09-24T14:56:22.606+02:002019-09-24T14:56:22.606+02:00Walt has a long wait to be permanent lol! I like t...Walt has a long wait to be permanent lol! I like the way language changes.Evelynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824964122794535252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-45447278704593113272019-09-24T13:27:51.624+02:002019-09-24T13:27:51.624+02:00I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a...I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything like<i> merci pour être venu</i>. Grévisse says: <i>Si le complément [de merci] est un infinitif, la construction avec </i>de<i> est la seule possible</i>... People say <i>merci pour</i> when the following word (<i>le complément</i>) is a noun.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-42688857529290280042019-09-24T13:17:04.287+02:002019-09-24T13:17:04.287+02:00Yes, age. If you've already had a resident'...Yes, age. If you've already had a resident's card for ten years and it needs to be renewed, the rules are: if you are at least 60 years old, your new card will be permanent. Whatever that means. Walt has had a carte de résident for ten years, but he is three months shy of being 60 years old, so he doesn't qualify. I'm not sure what difference it makes, if both cards have to be renewed in 2029.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-80952213419354074752019-09-24T13:16:28.743+02:002019-09-24T13:16:28.743+02:00But if the name comports two different rivers, sho...But if the name comports two different rivers, shouldn't it be DES ?! Or is the underlying thinking is that Loir-et-Cher is a single name, rather than a combination of two?Autolycushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17642868944400656922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-45704086409692729822019-09-24T13:02:14.231+02:002019-09-24T13:02:14.231+02:00Interesting that these giants of French literature...Interesting that these giants of French literature used the expression <i>merci pour</i>. I still prefer the use of de. As far as the expressions you mention, I don't think they are really <i>figées</i>, but just the right way to say. L'expression <i>merci d'être venu</i> would look and sound very awkward if it were <i>merci pour être venu</i>!chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-72849356188499158812019-09-24T12:48:56.757+02:002019-09-24T12:48:56.757+02:00Well, GREAT news that you have your cards in hand!...Well, GREAT news that you have your cards in hand!<br />Do you know the reason why you were given a permanent card, but Walt was not? Is it age?Seine Judeet (Judith)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07407353544376132484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-8939381030697582942019-09-24T11:52:37.630+02:002019-09-24T11:52:37.630+02:00I don't mind. I'm not only a food, cooking...I don't mind. I'm not only a food, cooking, and wine nerd, but also a grammar nerd, as you know. I wish you or someone else could stop language from evolving, but nobody has or has ever had that power, not even the Académie.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-89898404834248750742019-09-24T11:51:13.317+02:002019-09-24T11:51:13.317+02:00I think expressions like Merci de vos bons vœux, M...I think expressions like <i>Merci de vos bons vœux</i>, <i>Merci de votre visite</i>, or <i>Merci de votre réponse</i> are <i>expression figées</i> that are used in very formal language, or in writing, which is always more formal than the spoken form.<br /><br />Grévisse gives examples of <i>merci pour...</i> followed by nouns from the writings of Stendahl, Dumas, Michelet, Martin du Gard, Giraudoux, Claudel, Bernanos, and l'Académie. He even gives an example from the 17th century by a certain Sév. — Madame de Sévigné?<br />Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-62611165960640980292019-09-24T11:29:14.677+02:002019-09-24T11:29:14.677+02:00Ken, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to highjack ...Ken, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to highjack this post with my grammar diversion.chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-63533551861684878462019-09-24T11:20:32.559+02:002019-09-24T11:20:32.559+02:00Ken, For me, merci de works for verbs and nouns, a...Ken, For me, merci de works for verbs and nouns, as in <i>Merci de vos bons vœux!</i>. Merci pour sounds like an <i>anglicisme</i>. As far as I know you don't have a Thank you of... Do you?chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-52487794475174267812019-09-24T11:04:49.372+02:002019-09-24T11:04:49.372+02:00The contraction of de and an article works only on...The contraction of <i>de</i> and an article works only on the masculine. Thus <i>de le</i> is contracted as <i>du</i>. For example, the river Cher is masculine, so you have <i>département de le Cher</i> where DE LE is contracted into DU. The river Indre is féminine, so you have <i>département de la Indre</i> where DE LA becomes DE L' because the first letter of Indre is a vowel. <br />Aussi, dire le département de Loir-et-Cher est un barbarisme.chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-35835708582796293002019-09-24T10:44:31.767+02:002019-09-24T10:44:31.767+02:00Good point. Both outdoor and indoor labyrinths.Good point. Both outdoor and indoor labyrinths.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-5882684181427023402019-09-24T10:44:00.743+02:002019-09-24T10:44:00.743+02:00CHM, I hear people say "Merci pour le chocola...CHM, I hear people say "Merci pour le chocolat" but "Merci d'avoir apporté du chocolat". De goes with verbs and pour goes with nouns. And it bothers me too that people say "sur une île". Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-45359499611664385292019-09-24T10:38:57.328+02:002019-09-24T10:38:57.328+02:00And the site for the Indre says la préfecture de l...And the site for the Indre says <a href="http://www.indre.gouv.fr/Services-de-l-Etat/Prefecture-et-sous-prefectures" rel="nofollow">la préfecture de l'Indre on this page</a>.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-84306996053550010802019-09-24T10:18:57.501+02:002019-09-24T10:18:57.501+02:00Why wouldn't you say la préfecture de l'In...Why wouldn't you say la préfecture de l'Indre-et-Loire? They put la prefecture de la Seine-Maritime on the official S-M web page.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-52360370092408907082019-09-24T10:17:08.100+02:002019-09-24T10:17:08.100+02:00The plain carte de résident is the same: the card ...The plain carte de résident is the same: the card must be renewed, but the right to residence doesn't expire unless you've become a threat to "l'ordre public". So I still don't know the difference. Does your card say CARTE DE RÉSIDENT PERMANENT on the front side?<br /><br />I keep telling CHM that all living human languages evolve and change over time, but he just doesn't like the idea.Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-43565455983296590112019-09-24T09:10:33.071+02:002019-09-24T09:10:33.071+02:00What is interesting in your liste is that only LE ...What is interesting in your liste is that only <i>LE Loir-et-Cher</i> has evolved. The new, improved should be De Loiret ou DE Calvados! Does it mean Loir-et-Cher is so much ahead of its time!chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-17224775924193987802019-09-24T09:08:31.423+02:002019-09-24T09:08:31.423+02:00Sur une île sounds like the English "on an is...Sur une île sounds like the English "on an island."Diogenesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-89580890446856973822019-09-24T08:57:20.679+02:002019-09-24T08:57:20.679+02:00Susan what you say is interesting because the shi...Susan what you say is interesting because the shift from OF to FOR happens the same way in French. One example, we used to say <i> merci de ...</i>, now you'll see <i>merci pour...</i> which sounds more English than French!<br />Also <i>dans</i> and <i>sur</i>. <i>Dans une île</i> is now <i>Sur une île</i>! Why?chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-61351837145303443762019-09-24T08:45:11.915+02:002019-09-24T08:45:11.915+02:00Maybe the parking lot was intended to be a metapho...Maybe the parking lot was intended to be a metaphor for the civil service experience inside? The exterior of the building looks quite attractive in the aerial view. Glad you got your cartes!Diogenesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18071407.post-63543438438277960772019-09-24T08:33:30.114+02:002019-09-24T08:33:30.114+02:00New improved, ha! ha! ha!. The more it's impro...New improved, ha! ha! ha!. The more it's improved the more gobbledygook it gets!<br /><br />I wonder what the English syntax' role is in the pending demise of the French language?chmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765675930520613520noreply@blogger.com